Episode 20: Kinky Sex

Sex Talk- Episode 20 Kinky Sex

Voice Over: You're listening to sex talk, a podcast all about sex. In this episode expect to hear some colourful language and conversations of a sexual nature. You may want to pop on a pair of headphones for some privacy during this podcast. Sex talk. Coming up on this episode of sex talk:

Sarah: It's an idea that a kinky person it's kind of like the guy in Pulp Fiction, bring out the gimp, or somebody who just wears rubber and is a bit alternative or a bit 'gothy' and I'll get people who consider themselves to be very normal and they have this thing, so they don't really know how to balance the thing that they have and wish to do with their personality because where do they go, what do they do? The shame is intensified but actually all sorts of people have all sorts of preferences.

Voice Over: Sex talk, real stories real issues.

Adele: Hello and welcome to another episode of Sex Talk with me Adele Roberts.

Hilary : and me Hilary Ineomo-Marcus.

Adele: If you're new to Sex Talk, make sure you subscribe to the podcast so you can go back through the archive to hear episodes on subjects as varied as sex addiction, consent and living with HIV.

Hilary: In this episode of Sex Talk we're talking about a subject that's often kept well hidden behind closed doors and left to the imagination. We're talking fetishes, sex toys, swinging, BDSM - yes this one is all about kinky sex.

Adele: We'll be hearing from two women – one who's been part of the fetish scene for many years and another who has given sex therapy to people exploring their own kinks and fetishes.

Hilary: The high street store chain Ann Summers did some research last year. They spoke to over 2300 people and three quarters of them said they have a sexual fetish.

Adele : 74% of people surveyed say they regularly explore the world of bondage and power play. Nearly half (46%) say they have a thing for uniforms.

Hilary: Interesting that 61% of the people who took part in that Ann Summers Survey also said that they think kinks and fetishes are still considered taboo.

Adele : Have you ever been to an Ann Summers party?

Hilary : No but my neighbour used to do an Ann Summers party.

Adele : Did she? Or he?

Hilary : She.

Adele : Did you never want to go round?

Hilary : I did yeah and I've definitely always wanted to go to those parties and see what happens because you see in the movies and boys have their discussions and you think the raunchier stuff happens but it's all probably just the imagination.

Adele : Yeah Ann Summers if you're listening invite us to one of your parties.

Hilary : We would love to.

Adele : But to be fair some of the things that Ann Summers sell – so I've been in the stores and some of the things that they sell I don't know why there's such a taboo around them, they seem quite normal to me and I think this is what we're going to talk about a lot on the podcast today is that maybe some of these things shouldn't be considered as taboo anymore.

Hilary : It's true. Ultimately what it comes down to is this, it's sex and everybody's having it. I don't quite see what the taboo is around it anymore, as long as there's two consensual adults and it's a safe and clean environment then I think it's all good to go.

Adele : True and it had to happen for us all to be here.

Hilary : Exactly. I dread to think what my dad was doing.

Adele : Today we'll be joined in the studio by Zak Jane Keir, who has been involved in the fetish scene for 30 years. We'll also be joined by Sarah Berry, a Sex Therapist who specialises in therapy for people on the scene.

Voice Over: You're listening to sex talk. Find out more by going to sextalk.radio and share your thoughts across social media using hashtag sex talk pod.

Adele: We love words on this podcast – as anyone who has played or heard our regular game Word Porn knows, and there are loads of words to understand and get some definitions for in Sex Talk today. And who better to get some definitions and explanations from but the woman sat opposite me…welcome to the studio Zak Jane Keir..!

Zak Jane Keir : Hello, great to be here.

Hilary : Welcome. You've actually worn a t shirt that rivals mine and bearing in mind I'm wearing a beaded superman t shirt. It's incredibly difficult to beat this.

Zak Jane Keir : I did notice that it is impressive.

Hilary: Zak you have been involved in the fetish scene for many years and you used to write a fetish column for a sex magazine called Forum – can you tell us a bit about yourself and tell us about this wonderful shirt you're wearing as well?!

Zak Jane Keir : Not to keep you all in too much suspense I am wearing a t shirt that advertises a brand of vibrator, a wand vibrator called a doxy which means mistress or courtesan ,or woman who likes a good time and it's a very popular vibrator and I picked up the t shirt at an erotic writer's conference.

Adele: I love how I had to ask which end is which as well, that's how rubbish I am with vibrators but you're here to teach me which is great.

Zak Jane Keir : Yeah well there are many places you can learn about vibrators. I would say go somewhere like Sh! because they have them all on display and you can pick them up and have a look and see what looks interesting. The staff will tell you about them and there is this thing that apparently the best place to test a vibrator is the tip of your nose and see if that feels comfortable or not because apparently the tip of your nose is as similarly sensitive as your clitoris.

Adele : There's going to be so many guys listening to this just touching the tip of their nose right now going 'oh okay'.

Hilary : A new use for my nose apart from breathing.

Adele : Okay so the backstory then Zak if you wouldn't mind.

Zak Jane Keir : Okay so I started going to fetish clubs when I was about 25 which was the end of 1989. I know some of you listeners probably weren't born then but hey, I'm old ,and after a year or two I was working for a magazine called Forum at the time which was the more intellectual sex magazine. We used to do a lot of stuff about sex therapy and agony aunt services and explore more of the unusual sexual tastes so the editor asked me – she knew I went to a lot of fetish clubs and she said you should write us a club of the month column. And so every month or so I would think where I'd been and then I'd write one and I'd write about 300 words on it.

Adele : So did you try before you buy then, did you get fully involved in the experience?

Zak Jane Keir : Oh yeah I would get stuck in when the opportunity presented itself. I remember writing about this in the last Eroticon anthology called Truth and I was writing about my experiences as a sex club reviewer and it's like,while I never lied, there were things I left out. Sometimes I got the impression that the editors or the readers wanted it to be a how shagged I got, like a diary and I was never going to take it in that direction because of the inconvenient fact that there were nights I'd go somewhere and I wouldn't get up to anything at all, because there was no one there I fancied, or it was full of absolutely gorgeous people and no one was interested in playing with me, which you learn to deal with, it happens. And certainly in the early days fetish clubbing was a bit underground, it was a bit clandestine, people were a bit nervous about it so people would be very frightened that you were going to expose their identity. There was this whole thing. I remember going to one event where it's like this is the lady who's a reporter from Forum magazine and they're going 'oh what we did to the last reporter that came in! Shall we tie her upside down and spank her?'And I put on my best dominant face and went 'I don't think so'.

Adele : Let's pick up on that word dominant because we'd like to learn from you if that's okay so I know what a Doxy is now thanks to you. We've got a couple of words, we're going to read them out and then hopefully you're going to explain to us what they are because I thought it was really nice there that you said you can go to a club and not get involved. I didn't know that as well, I thought you had to go and feel pressured to…

Zak Jane Keir : Consent is everything. Every club ever on its website or its flyers or when you met the promoters of it somewhere they'd be like no we don't allow pressure, we don't allow creepiness. You can sit at the back and watch and I used to say to people you aren't going to get tied up the minute you walk in the door. Not unless you ask someone really, really nicely.

Hilary : So manners are not left outside the door then.

Zak Jane Keir : No. Fetish clubs I found quite early on are much less full of idiots than an average nightclub, you don't get the creepy guy saying 'hello darling you on your own?' standing too close to you and not going away even when you're communicating with every fibre or yourself that you are not interested and you don't want to know. At a fetish club you'll have a chat with someone and they'll say something like 'I'd really like to tie you up, I'd really like to spank you' and if you go 'I'm the one who does the spanking' they say'oh never mind fancy a pint?' And it's all completely amicable.

Adele: Okay so firstly, what is a fetish and what is a Kink?

Zak Jane Keir : There's not that much difference really. People will give you a billion different definitions. To an extent I think some people consider a fetish to be more about an object like a ball yank or a high heeled shoe whereas a kink might be seen as more about an activity like spanking or orgasm denial but really they're two words for the same thing.

Hilary : What is BDSM – what does it stand for?

Zak Jane Keir : Right. That's another one that's going to depend on who you ask. Bondage discipline, dominance and submission, sadomasochism. I don't use the term that much unless I have to because it's newer than I used to say the fetish scene, fetish club, because that was where I started. BDSM is more of an American term and it has some associations with the most po-faced analytical and oversensitive types. But again not necessarily. It can be what you want. If you say BDSM people know what you mean.

Adele : We're going to go over a couple of words that you've used there and I don't know if you've noticed my face, but I was like I need to ask Zak what that is. What is a submissive / bottom?

Zak Jane Keir : Right submissive is the person who gets the stuff done to them, who likes to yield control during sex. Some people like to go in for what they call lifestyle dominance and submission which means that one partner is 'always in control' in inverted commas and the other partner likes to yield control. For this to work and be healthy both people have to be aware that this is a game. It's a little bit like being Gandalf and Harry Potter at home. You know you're not really, not when you're at the supermarket, but it's something that gives you great pleasure and it's fine to live in a bit of a fantasy world with people you love the best as long as you're aware on some level that you're in a fantasy world. If you have a dominant and submissive relationship then it has to be absolutely understood that at any point either party can go look this isn't working for me I need to stop can we go out for a McDonalds together, get a burger together or something. Like any game you take a game seriously while you're playing it because otherwise why bother, but you have to be aware that it's a game.

Adele : Very healthy.

Hilary : The other part to that, bottom.

Zak Jane Keir : A bottom is somebody who likes to be tied up, spanked, having things done to them but isn't necessarily into the 'oh yes master I obey master or mistress', isn't terribly into psychological control. A bottom is more into the physical sensations.

Adele : So I guess dominant and top are the opposite of what you've just said.

Zak Jane Keir : Yeah pretty much pretty much. I mean I would call myself more of a top than a dominant really because the lifestyle thing I think is silly, but each to their own. I am more into grabbing people and doing dreadful things to them with their full consent and then going home.

Adele : I like the way you keep mentioning consent. That's great.

Hilary : Are there any other common words used in the scene which we might not know or said already?

Zak Jane Keir : Oh there are probably loads. People talk about shibari but then people might just say rope, that's basically tying people up with ropes. Someone who gets tied up is maybe called a bunny or a model and the person who does the tying is usually called a rigger.

Adele : So they're words that we know and love but then have different meanings in these clubs that you go in, so bunny. So next time I see a bunny I'll be like ah! I know what you've been up to!

Zak Jane Keir : Yeah don't get it mixed up with a rabbit which is a sex toy.

Adele : Many people might think of the Fifty Shades series of books and films when they think of this scene – discuss!

Zak Jane Keir : I kept meaning to go and see the film. I thought in terms of unintentionally hilarious it was probably among the top 10 and I have read a bit of the books, a couple of paragraphs and no more.

Adele : Was it quite far away from the truth?

Zak Jane Keir : Yeah up to an extent, it's Mary Sue to the max, that's why she's so vacant because the reader can impose her own personality traits and think it's her. That was never going to work for me in the first place because that's not how I roll.

Adele : I'm worried now, we were going to play our game with you but I feel like it's not up to scratch.

Hilary : And you're too experienced.

Adele : It's called word porn, would you like to play?

Zak Jane Keir : Yeah hit me up!

Voice Over: Sex talk. Word porn.

Adele : In front of me I have the dictionary of sex. We are going to… You're the first person I've shown this to who's like get me in there, let's have a look and see what's going on. We'd love you to pick a letter please, I'm going to find a word beginning with that letter, read it out and see if you can guess what it is.

Zak Jane Keir : Okay M for masturbation.

Adele : Excellent. Mujerados.

Zak Jane Keir : What?

Adele : Mujerados. Shall I spell it, you can have a pencil. Mujerados.

Zak Jane Keir : That looks like it's derived from Spanish. It's a plural so it's likely to be either tits or testicles.

Adele : You are so close! So yes it's something to do with Native American nations living in New Mexico so I'm guessing they'll speak Spanish so you've got that. It is plural. Hm. Okay so it's something particular about these males… it's something they like to do.

Zak Jane Keir : It's an action… Is it… I'm not terribly well up on Native American or New Mexican culture. Is it… Are they trans?

Adele : Yes! You are amazing. How did you do that? You've won life well done.

Hilary : The challenge now is for you to use those words some time this week, at least once.

Adele : If we had time I'd go through the whole book with you because I feel like you'd get them all.

Voice Over: Word porn.

Adele : Zak – thank you for your helpful insight into the language of the fetish scene.

Hilary: You are with the greatest respect, a veteran in this scene now. How has it changed over the years?

Zak Jane Keir : Things have changed a lot. The biggest change has been the internet as it's changed so much else in the way of popular culture. It's made it much easier for people who are interested to explore their interests at an earlier age and it used to be if you thought you were kinky or you had some interests you'd maybe talk to your existing partner if you had one and can we try this and can we try that or you might sit at home feeling lonely and a freak, I can't tell anyone this it's awful, it's disgusting. One of the things we used to do with the magazines like Forum was try to get the word out that liking something a bit different there is nothing wrong with this whatsoever and if you want to spank your partner with a wooden spoon some partners will be absolutely not into that at all but there are other people who'd be like oh yes harder. So it's a matter of discussing it with your partner. The mistake that post 50 Shades generation sometimes make is to think that all women naturally want to be submissive, it's like no. Doesn't work. What 50 Shades did do was make it a lot easier to talk about the fact that you might like some of this.

Adele : I think it's healthy though because through this podcast I've learned to be more open and talk about things more which has really helped me and on that communication and consent and because of the internet a lot of younger people are getting involved with the scene which is great, they know there's a choice out there for them and if they choose to do it brilliant. Can you give our listeners some tips about safe and healthy ways to communicate if they are involved in kink play?

Zak Jane Keir : Yeah. Remember you have every right to set your own limits and no matter what anybody says to you if you don't want to do it you say no. Also be prepared for it not always to go brilliantly the first time. It's not uncommon. There's something you fantasise about for a long time, you've found someone who is willing to do it with you, whether that's letting you do something to them or letting them do something to you. You've found someone who's into it and you also find that person sufficiently attractive to want to try it with them and you get together and you give it a go ,and you hate it. It doesn't fill you with delight, it's uncomfortable, your body doesn't respond properly, it hurts, it's boring. And if that happens and you say to the other person 'I'm not liking this stop' and the other person, if they're decent, will stop and 'can we talk about it. Is there a slight change that would help? Or do you just want a cup of tea?' And that's okay. No one has done anything wrong. You can't actually know until you try whether you're going to enjoy something or not. Same with anything. If at first you don't succeed, try again. Except when it comes to hand-gliding.

Adele: There was a piece of research done with a very un-sexy title - "Safer Sex Beliefs and Practices in Multi-Partner Heterosexuals". It concluded that women within the swinger, kink, and BDSM scenes were at a higher risk of STI and Blood Born Virus transmission, due to some of the different activities that are sometimes practiced, such as blood play, and having sex with multiple partners. What is your experience of safe sex in the scene?

Zak Jane Keir : Generally that people are pretty good at it actually. I'd be interested in having a look at that study and how many people they asked and how it was constructed.

Adele : In the clubs do they have implements for safe sex, so lots of condoms and…

Zak Jane Keir : If it's a swing club there quite often will be condoms. Again there are different rules and circumstances, whether you're in a play club or a private house or the back room of a pub which might have different rules and licensing conditions. Generally people who are into kink, they have this attitude that they like to learn stuff. They like to be educated. They like to do things properly. And then like to analyse and talk about what they're going to do and what they did and whether it was alright or not, so generally I would say that people in the scene – it's a bit like there used to be the myth that sex workers spread disease. Sex workers tend to be very careful because that's their livelihood, they need their health, they need their sexual health so they take more precautions and much more care of themselves.

A Adele : So we've spoken a lot about sexual health, the nature of the scene, what about the emotional side of the scene?

Zak Jane Keir : It's just like anything else. You can get hurt, things can go wrong. To do well you need to take a certain amount of responsibility for yourself. Just because you had fun with somebody it doesn't mean they have to be your partner forever. There are going to be people who will lead you on, lie to you, break your heart, cheat on you, but you're going to get that anywhere. You're dealing with human beings and there are no guarantees. Mix with a lot of people, hang out with a lot of people, talk to people, get a feel for who's dodgy and who isn't and you'll probably have a good time. You might end up crying into your pillow once or twice but that's life.

Voice Over: Sex talk. Starting a conversation about sex.

Adele : We're joined in the studio now by somebody who has been here before on a previous episode of Sex Talk –sex therapist extraordinaire Sarah Berry. Welcome to Sex Talk again Sarah!

Sarah Berry : Hello it's lovely to be here!

Hilary : It's lovely to have you back.

Adele : We love your hair!

Sarah Berry : Thank you, you both look smashing as well. Faces for radio.

Adele : What colour have you gone for?

Sarah Berry : My hair is red it's not the most interesting thing, it does smell a bit when I first put it on so I've had to wash it quite a lot.

Adele : 50 shades of berry. I can imagine this coming out soon.

Sarah Berry : There's no 50 shades of me at all. I'm a therapist, I'm very very professional.

Hilary: Sarah is a Sex and Relationships Therapist, and was with us previously talking about women's sexual problems in episode 13 - please do go back and check that programme out visit the sextalk.radio website if you've not heard it already. Today Sarah is here as the founder of www.londonkinktherapist.co.uk

Adele: We mentioned earlier howthe high street store chainAnn Summers did some research last year. They spoke to over 2300 people and three quarters of them said they have a sexual fetish.

Hilary: … but over half said that they think sexual fetishes are still a taboo subject.

Adele: In 2016 there was a Channel 4 TV show called the Great British Sex Survey which conducted a survey with YouGov – and the results were eye opening… We're going to do a new game called top 10 bingo, what are the top 10 sexual fetishes across the UK?

Sarah Berry : I would go with feet being one of the main ones.

Adele : No.

Sarah Berry : It's not there?

Adele : Zak over to you.

Zak Jane Keir : Threesomes.

Sarah Berry : Oh is this including lots and lots of things?

Adele : Yeah straight in at number 4 well done Zak. We're on the board 1-0.

Sarah Berry : Being tied up?

Adele : Rope work is not there.

Zak Jane Keir : Does it say bondage?

Adele : Oh is that covered with that? Number 2 well done Sarah.

Sarah Berry : What about suspenders, dressing up, lingerie.

Hilary : Uniform.

Sarah Berry : Yeah exactly what I said.

Zak Jane Keir : It's going to be some of the more mainstream ones.

Adele : Some of these I think you won't realise they're on the list because I think these are quite normal.

Zak Jane Keir : Is 69 on there?

Sarah Berry : Oral sex?

Adele : No.

Sarah Berry : Shower?

Adele : Kind of.

Sarah Berry : Golden showers, Roman showers. Golden showers is weeing, Roman showers is puking.

Adele : Water sports?

Sarah Berry : Water sports is to do with wees.

Adele : How many have we got? 1 2 3 4 5. So the top one you've already mentioned quite a lot.

Zak Jane Keir : Sex toys.

Adele : Sex toys number one.

Sarah Berry : Sex outdoors. Sex with a stranger?

Adele : You're too advanced for this. Shall we just read out the rest? Okay so number 3 sexy selfies.

Zak Jane Keir : I think whoever designed that survey needs a good spanking to be honest.

Adele : In at number five material fetishism.

Zak Jane Keir : Oh that means leather rubber PVC. Or velvet or silk or…

Sarah Berry : Any material.

Hilary : Number 7 came in as humiliation.

Adele : What sort of things would you do there?

Sarah Berry : Tell somebody they've got really small genitalia possibly, or anything that makes them feel bad but the person really enjoys it.

Zak Jane Keir : Some people really get off on that, some people punch you on the nose if you said it to them. It's as well to find out which way they feel before you do it.

Sarah Berry : And I would say with humiliation the person being humiliated wants to make sure they're actually really enjoying it and not just really really sad.

Adele : So don't actually troll them, make it sexy. Body fetishes. Sarah your point has been restored, feet is under body fetishes.

Hilary : And the last one cross dressing for sex.

Sarah Berry : Yeah that's quite common yeah.

Zak Jane Keir : I did edit last year an anthology called rule 34 where I asked my writers to send me in stories about unusual kinks and I got stories about photocopiers, dentists, church bells and I got one about tripe, butcher's tripe.

Adele : That's a cow's stomach isn't it?

Zak Jane Keir : Yeah – no one actually had sex. It's quite a subtle story involving some humiliation play and food fetishism but it's a brilliant brilliant story. We've got a story about tripe. She sent it in and I was like 'Charlie, no' and I read it and it was really really good and we got the tripe marketing board to retweet about it.

Adele: Any surprises there for you there Sarah and Zak?

Zak Jane Keir : No as I say the questions must have been a bit clunky because there's stuff in there that you wouldn't really call a fetish.

Hilary: Sarah tell us about London Kink Therapist website? Who is it there for?

Sarah Berry : A lot of people don't like to go to therapists because they believe that they are going to not understand kink, they're just going to pathologies it instantly and I don't. There might be some trouble with the kink that they're doing or that they want to do but we'll talk about that openly so I don't have an agenda to make people kinky or not kinky, that sort of thing.

Adele : Who is the typical person who you work with as a therapist?

Sarah Berry : There is absolutely not a typical person that I speak to. People who come to me have problems so a lot of people have a lot of shame with it. There's this idea that a kinky person is kind of like the guy in Pulp Fiction, bring out the gimp, or like somebody who just wears rubber and is a bit alternative or a bit goth-y and I'll get people who consider themselves to be very normal but they have this thing and they don't really know how to balance the thing that they have and wish to do with their personality because where do they go, what do they do and the shame is intensified but actually all sorts of people have all sorts of preferences and I don't really like the word alternative because it's interesting when you look at that survey, there are so many things that so many people do that they don't think are kinky, there's just this fetish kink kind of stigma that's such a shame. A lot of things could be normal. Like spanking, it's quite nice people say 'oh my god it's all about pain and people must be awful and want to hurt people' but it gets endorphins going it can be very sensual and fun and all sorts of things like that so it's not as weird as people think it is.

Zak Jane Keir : In one way the definition of a normal sex life is one that isn't pleasurable enough because if by normal we mean what most people do, most people when asked about their sex life will say I'd like a bit more of this and a bit less of that or something different so the only valid definition of a normal sex life I've ever come up with is one that isn't fully satisfying.

Adele : Good point.

Hilary : Sarah the people who come and see you, how do they tell you 'oh I actually like this thing'? Because there's obviously a lot of things in the media that make people very nervous about disclosing these really personal things.

Sarah Berry : As I say not everybody who comes to see me is having a problem doing the kink. They might be people who are out on the scene, instructors, all sorts of people very experienced at their kink but they've got problems somewhere else. Or they might have problems with an aspect of their relationship lives that happens to be kinky but the people who are ashamed of their kink, want to do it, haven't done it or sort of have done it and then feel upset or they're watching a lot of kink porn, it can take quite a few weeks until they actually tell me. I sort of know whether they want to tell me something or not quite quickly and I'll always say 'do you want to say it in this session or do you need to get to know me first and build up to it?' For some people to say I'm an adult baby or I watch trans porn or I cross dress or I really like farting or feet or something actually saying these words out loud they may never have done that. They may have typed it into a computer or thought it but they've never actually said it. And I'm not sitting there on the edge of my seat dying to know. I've heard pretty much everything, there's not a lot you could tell me that would shock me and I don't find it all that funny, it's just that's what people do and I just want to help so I sort of give people a lot of time and space. Some people never tell me but we do a lot of talk about what this thing is but they can practice at home. They can write it down, they can email it to me, some people write it on a piece of paper and slip it over to me and I'll sit there and read it. There's lots of different ways they can tell me but generally once they have told me there's a whole lot of relief. It's better to say things and slowly but surely they can work – it depends what they want. I'll ask people if I could wave a magic wand and whatever your preference is was acceptable in the world it was fine you could find a partner who did it, would you be happy with it? And they might say oh yeah I'd be really happy with it, the problem I have is getting to do it. So other people might say no I just want it to go. Now in the same way as conversion therapy I don't try and take the kink away, but sometimes talking about it can help people find out where it sits in their life. So it might be they've watched a lot of porn, it's got edgier and edgier and edgier and actually they don't need this to be their everything, they don't need to be with a mistress 24/7. They can actually have other things going on. But other people get quite preoccupied with things like… I'm going on and on now aren't I?

Zak Jane Keir : I was going to say isn't it the case that for someone who for whatever reason had a ghastly superstitious upbringing and they thing that perhaps even quite a mild kink is terrible and shameful and evil so the more they try to push it down, I don't feel like this, I don't have these feelings, they're disgusting, they're wrong, I don't have them, the more it actually bubbles up and bubbles up whereas if they just went okay I'd like someone to whack me with a wooden spoon for half an hour and maybe even just paid a professional to do that and the heavens have not opened, the world has not disappeared in a ball of fire, it's okay it's just a thing. And if you acknowledge a feeling like that and go okay I can go and do that sometimes it's not the whole of my life, it's okay, that can make me feel better.

Sarah Berry : For some people absolutely they just need permission, they just need to find ways and will talk about how can you do this, do you need to go online? Professionals are in the mix sometimes. It's such a broad thing that we're talking about. Some people actually want to do the thing. Obviously I am more someone if you come see me and you want to do your kink I'm going to talk to you about how to do it. If you don't want to do the kink and you hate kink and think kink's awful you might not come see me because obviously I'm a kink therapist, I'm more permissive than lots of people. But it's not my agenda to give people permission. It's to find out where it sits with them so it's about working out how the fantasy and real life can meet up.

Adele : So if someone's listening and wants to get started would you suggest that maybe like Zak said before you can go to a club and just sit back and watch what happens or would it be to come and speak to somebody like you? Is it talking first or watching?

Sarah Berry : It's very very case by case, there's not one size fits all. I think one of the loveliest places is somewhere called a Much which generally happens in a pub, generally people where street clothes or black and you can find them on FetLife and these happen in quite a lot of cities and it is just people talking.

Zak Jane Keir : I always recommend people find their local fetish market.

Sarah Berry : And in London we're very blessed, and Birmingham as well there's amazing markets.

Zak Jane Keir : London Birmingham and Brighton. Browse the stalls, you can talk to the stall holders, you can talk to people.

Adele : It's an actual market then?

Zak Jane Keir : Yeah literally there's people selling handcuffs, people selling rubber dresses, there's me selling books.

Adele : It's a relaxed environment.

Zak Jane Keir : It's relaxed, you can hang out, you don't have to admit to anything, you don't have to make any declarations about yourself, you can just have a bit of fun.

Sarah Berry : So there are all sorts of entry points. There's many things you can do and online the internet has massively massively helped people to feel that they're not just bizarre people on their own.

Zak Jane Keir : You're not alone.

Adele : So if you're listening and you're worried about the stigma you've heard these two wonderful ladies say that you're not alone.

Hilary : Now Sarah we'll ask you to indulge in one of our fetishes, word porn. You up for it?

Sarah Berry : I certainly am.

Hilary : You've got to beat Zak now.

Sarah Berry : Are you talking about at the game?

Hilary : Steady now.

Zak Jane Keir : Watch it Berry!

Sarah Berry : I'm a professional.

Hilary : It wouldn't be your first would it? You're not a virgin.

Sarah Berry : Not to word porn.

---

Hilary : So Sarah would you like to choose a letter for me please?

Sarah Berry : Oh my goodness I was going to say something rude. I'll have L for legless.

Adele : So so far we've had feet, boots and legs. I think you have quite an appreciation for that area.

Sarah Berry : You may think that but I possibly couldn't comment.

Hilary : Okay I've got one. Licentiousness.

Sarah Berry : Licentiousness? Is it being saucy in a deviant manner?

Zak Jane Keir : Unbridled naughtiness.

Sarah Berry : This is MY game!

Hilary : Take control Sarah!

Sarah Berry : Unbridled naughtiness.

Hilary : Yes yes you're both right. Half a point. Sexual activity that is completely unrestrained, sexual behaviour that is uncontrolled by legal or moral codes.

Adele : Sarah I got you. Loop de loop.

Sarah Berry : Is that something you might do with ejaculate or something? Loop de loop?

Adele : If you're going to loop de loop someone what would you do to them do you reckon? It's already been mentioned today.

Sarah Berry : Hand glide?

Hilary : Tie them? Gag them?

Adele : No.

Zak Jane Keir : Is it like a reverse cowgirl thing?

Adele : Nearly.

Sarah Berry : 69!

Adele : Hands up if you're done a loop de loop.

Sarah Berry : I couldn't possibly comment.

Adele : It's radio don't worry they can't see.

Voice Over: Word porn. -

Adele : Unfortunately we're almost out of time for this edition of Sex Talk. Before we go we have one final question for you both. What would you say to somebody who's on the verge of exploring their own sexual kinks? In a nutshell what would you say?

Zak Jane Keir : Take your time and read some good books.

Sarah Berry : Yeah get our your head – I don't mean on drugs or something, but don't be inside your head whether it's reading whether it's talking, there is help out there you don't just have to be in your own head or fantasies if you don't want to.

Zak Jane Keir : I would recommend reading Erotic Fiction though read it as inspiration and not a step by step guide. This is one of the things people whinge about 50 Shades but it was a story, it wasn't an instruction manual and it's a mistake to treat it as one.

Sarah Berry : Even though it's got a massive contract in the middle that's really weird. I had to read it because I was reviewing it – a lot of my new clients had watched it. But it's weird.

Hilary: Thank you so much to this episode's guests, Zak and Sarah, for talking about the fetish scene and the problems that some people deal with. Hopefully by talking so openly today they have reassured some listeners that they are not alone, and have encouraged people who may have been nervous about seeking advice or help to go and get it.

Adele : Unfortunately that's all we've got time for on this edition of Sex Talk. If you're looking for more information on kink, kinkacademy.com is a great online resource

Hilary: And of course, if you'd like to speak to our very own sex therapist Sarah Berry, you can visitwww.londonkinktherapist.co.uk

Adele : And if you think you've put yourself at risk of an STI, you can contact your GP. They should provide out of hours contact details for emergency calls. Or you can visit nhs.uk to find your nearest sexual health testing and treatment centre.

Hilary : Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast to keep up to date with the latest episodes, and to follow us on Twitter, we're @sextalkradiouk

Adele : You can join in the conversation using #SexTalkPod

Hilary : We'll be back in the next episode where we'll be talking about sexual health later in life

Adele : Until next time Stay safe

Hilary : And keep kinking.